Katie Turner is a Registered Psychologist, speaker and the founder of Katie Turner Psychology Inc. and the author of F*ck Toxic Spirituality: Avoiding Red Flags and Navigating the Spiritual Path with Integrity.
Katie believes in a holistic approach to healing. She has studied a wide range of Western psychological approaches and Eastern healing techniques. Katie is passionate about helping her clients to heal the past, find more peace in the present and to create their best possible future. Her mission is to bring together the science of psychology to the practice of spirituality. She offers consultation services, sessions, workshops and resources for organizations and modern-day spiritual seekers.
You can take the FREE Quiz to Discover your Dominant Intuitive Superpower at a www.katieturnerpsychology.com
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and if we have different intuitive abilities a a lot of the for my work as as an empath and empathic clients it’s
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if we just are trading every emotion like it’s ours to process we’re never going to stop processing like we’re some
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for empathic people it’s like we have to first be like is this even mine or not mine if it’s not mine it’s not mine to
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process it’s not mine to like cry about Journal keep moving through because like the world has a lot of stuff to process
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like we’re never going to stop doing that I don’t believe we’re here to like absorb the collective suffering it’s more of like is there something more
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than me is there life after death like is there a loving source and you’re getting into philosophy and pros and
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cons and rational reasons Spiritual Awakening experiences is it might be one or a series of experiences where it’s
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not rational it’s not logical anymore it’s you know like you experience something that you cannot unknow
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[Music]
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I’d like to welcome to the journeying soul author of toxic spirituality Katie Turner nicely with a little little
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little as instead of the you so and um so let’s just go down that list of
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things that people need to be aware of one of the main premises of the book is we are even if we Are Spiritual Beings
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like I believe we are I’ve experienced that we are we are still in a human like
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we’re still we’re Spiritual Beings having a human experience and we cannot
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like they are both true at the same time and so we need to attend to both like
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it’s not about one or the other and wherever somebody is at like different layers of those may need more
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attention at that point in their journey and so when we get too far on either end
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of just spirituality or only human we can run into problems and so I think the main the my main like
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question or reason for writing the book was there was so many times over and over again with people I I would just be
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like well how would you know like there’s no guidebook for this there’s no one to talk to like if you Google this
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like it’s of course you there’s so few people you can talk to about this and then to weed out like who is actually
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credible to talk to and even well-meaning people in that space it’s like oh just like think positive and manifest it’s like this is not trauma
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informed like that doesn’t help someone they cannot think their way out of a trauma reaction they actually need
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safety stability grounding the amount of times I’ve seen people have to almost choose between their spiritual support system or get
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really almost like gaslit there’s there’s things that we don’t do great socially and don’t do
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great in human like even spiritual spaces Al like holding space for hard emotions for chronic illness grief loss
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like spiritual tools aren’t to by pass and be like oh like I just get to hit
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the easy button on human and I don’t have to feel sad I don’t have to feel hard like I can control life and death I can control all these things it’s like
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no this just makes it easier to navigate what’s coming it makes us easier to see what can like where do we have some Free
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Will and autonomy and where are we actually our Free Will is choosing how we’re responding through this and there’s like so Soul lessons there’s
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deeper things and even if there’s Soul lessons like it doesn’t say like oh well now you don’t you don’t get to feel sad
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about this now like there’s real human emotions in it so yeah it’s like you
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can’t live in a constant state of transcendence you’re not transcending every problem into this spiritual realm
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the maybe possible but I think if it is it’s a result of engaging in a process
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where you just arrive there like I’m not there I don’t know anyone who’s authentically there I’m not saying it
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isn’t possible but I don’t think we get there by being like no I’m not looking at this like shove it underground yeah I
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mean if if you believe everything in history you know we’ve had very few figures in history who have lived as
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completely Transcendent people who while I mean I come from a Catholic background
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lot of people a lot of Christians in this world and you know to have a figure who’s on the cross saying forgive them
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that’s pretty Transcendent but that’s not most of us and you also you also touched on something that I completely
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agree with which is you know what I often describe as just I don’t want to be negative about it but I call it like
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the problems of being in an incarnate body like if you’re in your body you there are things that we need to
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maintain the Incarnation and those things are food Fire Water Shelter air they tend to come first so and we’re in
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them we’re in these bodies we’re incarnate for whatever reason so as you were saying it’s not we’re just not
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Spiritual Beings we’re also incarnate in this realm and if
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you believe that like we’re just a little piece of our bigger Soul whatever we are limited in this in this part now
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you also touched on something that I did want to dive into because some of the subject that I talk about on the podcast
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is manifestation I’m about to do a big thing on it and you said some things that I was just like amen sister you
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know specifically you said you know when people dive into um capitalist consumerism dressed up in spiritual
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clothing you know I it makes me bananas when people are just like I just want to manifest stuff you know yeah I can have
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all the stuff if I just manifest right yeah and it’s just even being aware that
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like that is infused into a lot of these like a lot of different coaches teaching
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most people have gone to some kind of Workshop or inspirational where it’s like the check and the house en chanting
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it’s like again like the ego is supposed to serve the soul not dictate and when
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we get into that space it’s like our ego dictating like I need all these things to to feel safe to feel secure like if I
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have all this money all this stuff that I can’t run out of like I will be safe and it’s really souls in the driver’s
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seat it’s not really material part can be part of that and it it for some people it is part of their thing we can
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work on belief systems we can work on like learning the money side but there’s also Parts where sometimes it’ll guide
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us to actually it isn’t about money and it’s about when that safety in security is like our actual connection with that
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divine within us it we don’t actually need to have this all the time we can trust that we have enough and will have
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enough you know you you said the line that one of the lines that I wrote down from your book that I loved which is the
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ego is to serve the soul I’ve spoken with so many people
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when we’re talking about meditation and all sorts of suffering you know how the ego is the problem you know the ego
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causes so much trouble and it and you were the first one that I think I’ve spoken to that really put it just in the
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right place where it’s like it’s not about it’s not about always shutting up the EGO and shutting down the ego the ego has a
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purpose but it is supposed to be the ego supposed to serve the soul like that’s the healthy balance right there and I
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thank you for that because I was like that’s how I want to be thinking about it you it’s like what’s my ego doing and
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is it serving my soul yeah and I know I can’t take credit for that um even
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Albert Einstein has a famous quote of the intuitive mind is the sacred gift and the rational mind is the faithful
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servant we’ve created a society that honors the servant has forgotten the gift and I I see that a lot too in kind
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of spiritual spaces of like this demonizing of the ego and the ego helps us be human like it executes things but
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it’s like the ego can also relax when there is this higher order like intuitive piece of like the ego will
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will get to know what it needs to know when it’s time for it to and then it can like execute the business plan it can
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review the finances like it can take care of the physical world part of our goals but it’s more grounded it’s not
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controlling like having to predict everything having to to know like make
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all those decisions in the quantum field of like what do we feel called to where do we have energy what feels like sole
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purpose like it gets to actually relax and just focus on what it’s really good
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at good to like I said I’m gonna be thinking about it differently so um
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another thing you touched on that I was in my notes too was you were talking about um you know that it’s the the
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toxic spirituality idea of trying to bypass grief and suffering not just your own but also in not being able
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to offer condolences and support to other people going through it it’s almost like empathy or hold space for
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people when that’s what they really need then yeah it’s almost like if people and
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I think many of us who have gone down a spiritual expolation path have run into
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people who in their spiritual journey get very judg
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for somebody else yeah why are they so depressed about their loss why are they
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sick there must be something you know they they have failed in their spiritual Perfection somehow and it’s like yeah
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yeah I see that a lot too and I see it a lot impacting the people I work with as well too like in in many different ways
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and forms yeah like it’s kind of this again of like if you get this right
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spiritually like you can control these things that are not the ego’s job to control
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you also there’s a huge a huge section here uh on quick fixes and miracle cures
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I have a lot of notes Here Yeah but important thing most important thing I think you noted um which is that illness
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disability and death these are not failures these are just what would you
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call them inflection points I mean it’s like they obviously yeah again because I
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think it’s that that that piece of like and and again I think there’s holding this duality of like yes for some people
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and their soul Journey that Soul leading it some people may have near death experiences come back some people may be
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drawn to affirmations whatever they do and they’re like oh I have this cure piece but that ends up getting put on
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people where it’s like how do we hold the balance of like hope and actually supporting people going through things and the reality is that we are all going
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to die um we’re all going to experience like decline or death at some point or another so again and that that’s hard
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like there is even even when you can hold both and I kind of share in that it’s like I have mediumship abilities
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now it’s like I have I’ve gotten it’s not uncommon for me to get visitations from loved ones who’ve passed other
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things it’s like I know they’re there but you’re still grieving them it’s and so I think there there’s that
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element of like it’s not we have to get better at holding space for that and this mystery of like we won’t always
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know the full workings of the Soul and even if we’re connected even if we’re getting those messages are helpful
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for people when they’re genuinely connected to that when it’s coming through for them there can be huge Comfort reassurance with that and again
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the like duality of that our heart can hold all this contradictory emotions our brain wants it one or the other so we
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can have these like and I mean I’ve worked with people where they have it’s not uncommon and I’ve had that
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experience myself it’s not uncommon in my practice when that genuinely comes through for people of like their own connection with their higher self guides
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like what ever they call it that this message of source of like this really difficult person like they were here to help your soul evolve they were here to
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help you master this they like this it was time for them to go like this is part of their soul time they’ve done
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what they need to do in this lifetime it’s like that can be really healing and reassuring and the human part of us
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still needs to feel like the rage to be like yeah and like abuse is not okay and like these like terrible Dynamics are
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not okay I think that’s part of our like soul and Collective Evolution too is
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it’s not just about oh like this is all fine like let’s like put our head in the sand and ignore some very serious issues
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um and just be like because i’ I’ve heard the crazy I don’t like using that word but quote unquote craziest stuff
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come through of advice of even people’s spiritual communities being like Oh well your kids signed up for this lesson with
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this like abusive co-parent and I’m like yeah and no like we need to talk to a lawyer and like your lesson might be
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actually like shutting that down to the best of your ability like fighting for them it’s not just like well I guess
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like their soul signed up for it so I’m going to leave them in this [Laughter] no yeah that is that is uh yeah that is
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not the um it’s so dismissive when somebody spiritually says that where it’s like exactly it’s like you you I
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think you talk about it as sort of restorative justice in a way in the spiritual realm where it’s like no there are things that there we have slightly I
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don’t know where we are now the world it’s 2025 the world is in a really strange little
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um but we had you know evolved to some point where we had things like the
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Geneva Convention and there were after World War II yes there were Wars but they have not been we’ve not had another
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world war things have been we we tried to evolve to make sure that some damage that Humanity kept doing over and over
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and over again we try we tried to do that less so and and that can happen in
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a smaller level like you said when you see people be I me let’s put 100 years ago there was no child protective
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services people could do whatever they wanted um it’s still not perfect it’s still not solved but if the the answer
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was not to say ah people beat their kids that was not the you know those kids
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signed up for a lesson no the answer was to create services and put in some mechanism and and that’s and that’s just
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one small example but yeah it’s like how do we engage with these things so that we’re still connected to that light within us that love but be a source for
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like how do we evolve to be like what’s the calling to do to keep evolving to be doing better to
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like really have that I almost call it it’s like this energy of like Warrior type energy Archangel energy where it’s
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like yes there’s the love the unconditional love is there the nurturing is there the seeing the good in people is there and there’s this like
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and this is not okay so what do we do about that what action can we take um
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and not being a being afraid to kind of fight for what’s right from a place of like love and
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empowerment and boundaries [Music]
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absolutely yes um I guess you also call that
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looking at my you also call that like ignoring real world feedback but I know
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that ignoring real world feedback extends Beyond I think what we’re talking about too I mean part of it part
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of what you’re saying is responding to real world yeah and I think that one is a bit about like there’s like two points
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and that’s almost like an individual reflection too I believe there’s there’s people who almost take too much
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literally of like everything that’s happening outside of you is a reflection of you so there’s this like I’ve see and
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I just worked with this with people so much where it’s like oh this person’s being so horrible to me my partner’s being so abusive like where in I am I
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doing that and like where am I and I’m like no well yeah like we got to look at both sides but if you’re actually
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accountable if you’re trying everything you can to do this we also have to look at sometimes the mirror back is not an
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exact mirror of like these are the exact qualities that are mirrored back and the relationship one’s a good one if you’re
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with someone who’s emotionally immature like their behavior is actually getting abusive you are not equally engaging in
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that um it may be like where are you actually putting up with that where are you giving your power away where are you
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feeling like it’s your job to like just get like heal someone
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enough that then they’re not abusive it’s like no they need to be accountable for that and if they’re not going to take accountability we need to maybe
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look at our own childhood patterns managing certain personality traits where we may tolerate too much that’s
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not okay um and then there’s others where they’re just like no I’m just going to manifest
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and I’m not going to actually listen to anything that’s coming like I think that one I saw there’s some video and some
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people are like oh I don’t like this reality so I’m just going to visualize a really like healthy relationship or me thriving at work and they’re not
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listening to their supervisor feedback the feedback from their partner it’s like now if this actually has some themes that keep coming up from everyone
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you need to pay like that is your key to evolve here well you know something interesting that I think is going on now
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obviously this podcast mostly goes out on YouTube and um because it’s on
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YouTube I watch a lot of YouTube videos and I have been I guess I shouldn’t say surprised
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but I see so many spiritually oriented videos on YouTube there’s no standard
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for any of us publishing anything ex very few standards just you know the basics like they don’t want obscenity
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and obviously no like pornography you know crazy Stu no advocating murder like
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crazy you know not not uncrazy stuff but people beyond that can say anything and it reminds me when I see a lot of the
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the videos out now that in the spiritual realm that it’s almost like the fulfilling of what Carl Sean said about
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people um like regressing into a um superstitious type of world but in the
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spiritual realm it’s this idea that there’s going to be this alternate Earth and you’re a light worker and you’re
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going to trans again we get back to the Transcendent you’re just going to send it all and it’s going to happen last
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year oh no it’s going to happen six months after that oh it’s coming down the corner now oh it’s going to be a year from now and then there’s another
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realm of people where it’s like the aliens are going to come and they’re going to take care of it it’s never the fact that you we’re here with the work
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in front of us the human work in front of us yeah um that that has to be done
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and it’s like and and the I’m just bring saying this because the when you’re talking about some of your patients who
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are not responding to the thing they think they’re going to instead of responding to their their boss’s
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feedback for example they’re going to just mine aren’t like that I just I see that out there and I see that like from
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other people most of the people I work with are very engaged in their own work like they’re the ones who are more likely to take take way too much
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responsibility for everything that’s going on they because they’re already like if they’re working with me and they’re wanting to do deep work it’s
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like they’re that weeds out the people who don’t want right feedback but I see those I see a lot like those are more
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stuff I see kind of in like algorithm stuff where it feeds me videos from YouTube Tik Tok where I’m like what like
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this is imagine being in a relationship with this person where you’re like this really hurts my feelings like I’m just
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going to visualize as happy and you’re like no like actually listen to me and
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be a better partner yeah yeah and also it’s like maybe a thing I talk about a lot on the
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show is like finding your people in a way like mostly in the grief realm like this the podc this podcast is kind of
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like you know heal your grief connect with Spirit manifest a new life in Broad strokes and there’s a certain portion of
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that of like finding your people and your people can change over the course of your life you know depending but I
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also don’t want people when we’re talking about healing grief a big thing is um you know you don’t want to get
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stuck in woundology you don’t want to be the list of everything you’ve lost and every anyway that’s a that’s a huge
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topic what people’s identities are and how we form them over the course of our lives so even I won’t even touch that um
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but you did say um something that I’m G to just sort of sum up in a in a more piffy way from your book which is like
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thinking everything you see in the world is just like the world is just a big mirror the world is not just a big mirror it’s a little bit more mysterious
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than that some of it’s sometimes it’s a mirror sometimes it’s just doing whatever mysterious thing it does so
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it’s a little tricky again soul level like some stuff’s above our pay grade to fully understand or know like it’s in
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that doesn’t work our ego always wants to be like well what’s the whole picture tell me all the steps like ex exactly
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what’s going to happen so I can feel safe and secure in this and soul level stuff is like you’ll you don’t get to
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demand what you want to know like there’s you can get answers you can engage it can be very helpful but it’s like never going to work according to
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the way that ego is demanding now I have a note here that I
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don’t now Katie you and I booked this interview a couple of months ago M so I
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read your book like a couple of months ago yeah yeah no worries I have a note
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here and I seemed excited about it because I put an exclamation point next to it planes thing what is planes thing
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okay so yeah again some of the capitalist manifesting and some of the things where I get where I see a lot
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again almost like internet wise of like what I don’t believe in terms of the manifesting part there’s the I talk
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about the like Soul leading at first so there’s a piece of like who’s actually in the driver’s seat here and it’s not
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saying you can’t have things happen but those usually don’t feel the way you want them to feel or like they may fall
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apart or come with consequences if it’s like an ego-driven forced thing um so I
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talk a bit about that the other side of it too can be sometimes there’s like oh there’s a spiritual guidance or like I
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have this sense of I should start a business or I should have a healing practice or this piece and and then
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people might just me meditate feel into it and sit there waiting or like immediately
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quit their job and it’s like whoa whoa slow down like ego needs to serve Soul
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these often need to go together and we need to be open to this the Journey of it and de really developing intuition
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our soul like soul and intuitive timelines it’s hard to translate those to rational timelines a lot of the time
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I mean I felt that call to explore Spiritual Awakening see like
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build my practice based on that but it’s that took years to do that was like
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years of work and training and to it did not happen overnight and then and it was
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de as also as we talked about you are a very ethical person and you knew what your obligations were as somebody Whose
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license to practice psychology so bringing those two together I’m glad to hear you took your time doing it when
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even now I’ll still get stuff I mean even me speaking here writing the book is for the last few years I’ve been getting the sense of I need need to like
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be more visible like this needs to get to more people I need to serve more people in a different way but there’s
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steps there of like manifesting that in the actual physical world and like not
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being a burnt out human who also has like a child to take care of other things where it’s like okay how do I
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actually do this in a way that’s sustainable for me that feels good and I am following this guidance but it
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doesn’t happen again that quick fix overnight like it’s not a failure if you’re not cuz see a lot of coaching
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spaces places where it’s like oh I quit my corporate job and now I’m doing this and you don’t see all the behind the
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scenes stuff you don’t see like do they have a partner supporting them what level of privilege are they coming from what level of resource and access do
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they already have like what groundwork did they do before like what are those actual numbers looking like is it
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sustainable like so I think it’s just sometimes people can get into trouble
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where it’s like it’s again it’s not just one or the other it’s the soul leading but then the ego is good at being like
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how do we like act set this up in a way that works for us and takes care of us
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in our day-to-day where like we actually do need food and shelter and sleep and finances yeah you know when I first
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heard when I first came across your book and I saw the title toxic spirituality I thought that
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it was going to be just really going at like coaches um which it’s not that’s not
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that’s not what but but I will say coach are a problem because a lot of in my
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view I don’t know I want to hear what your take is but my view a lot of people they have an experience and that experience is also
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coupled with I don’t think what I’m doing with my career is the right thing so I’ve had this experience I’m gonna be
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a coach and there’s a lot of coaches out there and coaching is this completely unregulated space like anybody can say
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I’m a coach now obviously if they’re going to make a living at it they have to have some skill it’s something and it
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could just but the thing is it could just be marketing themselves it could be nothing beyond that and I think like the
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coaching space is kind of a toxic space I I love coaches there’s like again I
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think it I I paid for coaching I’ve had great results with coaches like I have worked with coaches there’s times
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there’s definitely times where I’d recommend coaches um but again I think it’s one of these places where I talk in
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the beginning of book about like regulated versus unregulated spaces and there’s kind of few things on there’s I
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think there’s more of a trend of moving into coaching um and so it’s again can people actually have the empowerment
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they need to make a good decision about who they’re working with and recognize like some of these there’s some really skilled people in these areas and
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there’s some people who just called thems that or maybe took a 10 hour 100 hour workshop and that that’s scary um
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the other part I’ve seen a trend since the pandemic and I just see it happening more and more where I think think
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there’s this double-edged sword where socially we are way more informed about mental health there’s more kind of
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information about trauma like collectively we have more information than ever the shadow side or the worry
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with that is um cognitive bias wise when we have a little bit of information about any subject we think we know more
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than we actually know the more we get into a subject like the more you actually have degrees in
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Psychology the or like any other area the more you realize there’s so much here you don’t know and that you’ll
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never actually know so I think there’s also like a collective problem where people are like oh like I know this B
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about trauma and like now I’m going to start working and I’m a trauma informed or like and the part that really scares
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me is coaches pivoting into talking about treating depression anxiety trauma where I’m like I don’t see anything in
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your profile that means you’re a safe space to work this I’m not saying you can’t be a support to someone who has
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the right piece but it’s like do you even know what to assess for do you even know how to make sure you’re safe to
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work with this person like are and I I talk about that in the red flags of like do have a scope of practice are they
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very clear on who they can help and who they can’t help because if that’s not there this could be very dangerous for the person and the practitioner um
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because they’re probably well-meaning but pivoting into depression like there’s High there can be high self-
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injury or like suicidal ideation there and you need you need a lot of skill to manage that you need a lot of skill and
26:50
experience to filter out what is like what trauma is safe to work with like trauma is a huge thing you have to in
26:57
Psychology you have to already be licensed and then you do Advanced Training in it you don’t even you don’t come out not every psychologist can even
27:03
work with that it’s specialized after and even then you have to be careful um
27:09
so it’s just one of those areas where I’m like this is there’s positive with it but there is the shadow side that I
27:14
don’t think is being talked about enough to be like some of this can be very helpful and you need to be careful yeah I just when I think about
27:22
the coaches um there’s a book that was oh God I think it was published almost 20 years ago sure it’s by a writer Tom
27:29
Nichols he does a lot of like political TV here and it was called the death of expertise and you know I think we see
27:37
that in a lot of spheres I mean like I said the world’s in a strange place you
27:42
know people running governments that maybe don’t have the expertise to run governments people you like you you’re
27:48
just mentioning it’s like you’re for coaching but um you know people with certain people like there are good
27:54
coaches there but then there’s others that are very scary don’t have the expertise to deal with trauma and
28:00
depression there’s not really any breaks for it and you know unfortunately my
28:06
take on it is it’s still got some ways to get worse because as you said it’s
28:11
that thing where when you start to really learn about a subject that’s when you realize you don’t really know anything about it and we’re in a world
28:18
where I mean I don’t know if Tik Tok is actually going to get shut down but there’s a lot of people learning things
28:24
from 30 second videos on Tik Tok and you can’t learn the me so manys exactly the dep and the nuance
28:31
and the case by case basis you don’t even you don’t even learn enough to know it gives you that sense you don’t even
28:37
learn enough to know that you don’t really know about it so yeah and again it’s such a double edge because I think
28:42
there’s like it is the destigmatization is great people being more open like the conversations around mental health
28:48
there’s really positives with it but there is this like scary side to it too where yeah you could be following
28:55
someone who doesn’t have enough training or working with When You’re vulnerable and that’s an area in your book too
29:01
where you talk about the gurus and um like God complex problems in that can be
29:08
part of toxic spirituality that’s when it gets into the like because I think there’s this piece around it’s helpful
29:15
for any person whether they’re spiritual or not to know emotional maturity can someone self-reflect
29:22
like on the spectrum of emotional maturity because I do think it’s really a spectrum and we’re not like fully
29:27
arrived there’s always it’s work I’m still doing I’m still evolving I hope I’m even more emotionally mature further
29:32
along and I’ve definitely come a long way from when I was younger but I think there’s the part to see like it’s not
29:38
about finding the perfect person who’s like transcended all these things it’s more of can they separate it do they
29:44
know are they able to reflect do they know what they can work with and hold safe space for do they know when to
29:49
refer out are they are they doing their own work like those are the ones who are more safe to work with versus you can
29:57
get into emotionally immature personalities who have really strong psychic gifts who are really charismatic
30:02
and it may even get into personality pathology where it’s like these are high personality disorder traits or they
30:08
might actually even have a full-blown untreated unmanaged personality disorder and this is in very dangerous the rate
30:15
of traumatization getting too close to these people very very high risk for
30:21
specifically that um having an ability if somebody has a spiritual
30:26
ability it doesn’t necessar really mean that they have integrity these are two very separate separate sep Dimensions
30:35
yeah um and that and then the follow up on that um it you warn people to uh look out for
30:45
like and again this is staying in sort of the guru Mentor advisor realm the people that promote
30:52
dependency use fear manipulation bullying dependency they might give you or if you’re really serious about this
30:57
you’ll invest you’ll find the $30,000 or whatever to work with me versus like and I’m not saying people can’t have their
31:03
rates but it should be a very like detached of like whether you work with someone or not and wanting them to get
31:09
the best support for where they’re at and and with what their budget is I don’t believe we have to NE spend more
31:15
than we can afford to and there’s times when it is worthwhile to invest but when
31:20
it gets into bullying when it gets into like oh psychic reading of like oh something’s Terrible’s going to happen like I don’t believe in that necessarily
31:27
and if people are using fear promoting kind of that dependency like and then blurring the boundaries too because it’s
31:34
like they’re often benefiting from that that relationship and it’s becoming it’s they’re taking advantage
31:40
of people in a vulnerable position whether they’re conscious of it or not yeah I’ve seen this happened in two different Realms I mean I had a good
31:47
experience where this is going back on 25 something years I was in
31:53
around 30 and I’d had a medical crisis and um I’d been through like couldn’t I
31:58
was having problems with my back it was like it was based on trauma that had been stored in my body that in my late 20s was like you’re not suppressing this
32:06
anymore we got to stop you right here and I had gone to of course every doctor chiropractor surgeons and injections in
32:13
my spine the whole thing and finally I wound up in the hospital like I just inaction couldn’t move and a lawyer that
32:19
I worked with um said you know why don’t you go to this guy that I had just gone to and this this this lawyer there were
32:26
lovely guy had the cutest son in the world I remember his little and um who’s probably like got kids of his know now
32:33
but anyway um he said he oh yeah he said his back had gone out the doctor gave him bike it in and I was like that’s for
32:40
me and it’s like you don’t know your back went out for one weekend I’m doing this for years so I went to this guy and
32:46
he was an osteopath who did like like gentle osteopathic manipulation that
32:52
wound up I got up off his table and all of a sudden I could I felt normal I had not felt normal
32:58
in like three or four years by the time I got home I couldn’t walk again and he was like explain to me my you know he
33:05
did some adjustments my brain was really pissed off and it went back to doing what didn’t and I had to see him three times a week which was a lot and I had
33:13
good insurance but it was still a lot because he was in that area of medicine that wasn’t really covered by insurance so well yeah but the thing about it was
33:20
Katie after I don’t know if it was after six months or so like I was like feeling
33:26
better I knew that he his treatment was really helping me he said to me you know what you you need to see me a little
33:34
less like you’re doing okay and then another few months after that he said you know I really don’t want to see you
33:40
that often I want you to actually try and he recommended another person said why don’t you try shiatsu with her you
33:46
can do her he told me to stop coming in which was you know in in a way it can be
33:53
unusual on the other side of it like I remember when my sister she started um
33:58
studying Jiu-Jitsu MH and just at a little dojo and there was a whole culty
34:06
thing that went on there with everybody revering Sensei Joe who ran the place
34:11
and she had to come more and she had to pay more and she had to sign up for more
34:16
yeah exactly and I mean exactly and that thing and as and that’s where I think of like you if you want to Great like if
34:23
there’s people there doing that but if it’s this like pressure and everybody’s got to drink the Kool-Aid like that’s where it gets ick it’s not about that
34:29
there’s people who really love this and are getting a lot and going all the time it’s that like you’re expected to do
34:34
this and there’s something wrong with you if you’re not or like this should be your path that’s the ick yeah and and
34:40
and it’s important to like like I said I was lucky that I had that experience were just out of the blue my osteopath
34:46
said you know what time to pair back you know like I was learning how to hold my
34:52
own energy and manage my own body better and that was a great gift because but a lot of like my sister you know so many
34:58
people have had that experience so um it is it is it is a flag for sure and it’s
35:05
it’s like I think I want people to have those reflection questions because it’s You’re vulnerable and you’re looking for
35:11
Community you’re looking to someone to Mentor you you’re there’s a power imbalance kind of that can happen and
35:16
it’s often a part of those relationships so it’s so heartbreaking it could be such a betrayal or even traumatizing for
35:22
people when it’s like this person they trusted and gave like access to their energy like then actually manipulates
35:28
them or then starts gaslighting them and making this conditional and wanting more and more from them that’s like really
35:35
icky and I also feel too it’s that normal thing where like I say you have to find your own people but sometimes
35:41
you wind up in a spot where it’s like ah I thought I found my new people and it’s
35:46
like no that was just a stop on the way you still got a journey a little F the
35:52
road yeah sometimes it’s part of that development for herself too because I know I’ve seen this with some clients and for myself personally with this one
35:59
with one kind of unregulated teacher Mentor early in my journey I got to the point where I was like I want nothing to
36:05
do with you like I’m keep all my money I am not finishing this I want no association um but it was for me it was
36:12
a real point of like not putting someone on a pedestal being like yeah they are internationally recognized they’re they
36:18
have all this this the psychic gift that I like really admire and I’m like wow that’s so beyond mine but it was like no
36:24
my own knowing knows more for me around like this is right this is true this doesn’t feel good or right for me the
36:31
Dynamics I’m seeing here it’s like yeah they have all this skill there’s stuff to offer but there’s all this imbalance where they’re not doing their own work
36:37
and addressing their stuff that it’s like no just trust that you don’t need them like sometimes it is like kind of a quote unquote dark teacher where it’s
36:43
like if we engage in our own process we come out more empowered not saying what they do is right or okay
36:50
but yeah absolutely um yeah you have to
36:55
yeah if you can learn how to take what you can learn from that person and move it move on and I mean
37:03
now I have a book to be like I want people like this to not get away with this in the same way and people have the support they
37:10
deserve yeah yeah yeah it’s I have to say from their from the
37:17
point of view in some ways of these people who are doing this I get how
37:23
um seductive it can be and how easy it to can be when people are just giving
37:29
over their energy um and and their but
37:34
yeah I’m sorry it’s a lot of times I don’t think people a lot of times I don’t think it’s intentional or
37:39
malicious I think there’s a small percentage where it probably is it’s probably very small but I think a lot of time it is people’s own like their own
37:46
ego wounds their own shadow stuff the stuff they haven’t addressed and that they’re not addressing enough that then
37:52
starts running this of like this fear like they’re not connected to that light enough within them themselves to say
37:58
because again when you’re connected to that higher self it’s like that source is your Source it’s not like each client
38:03
of like how do I get everything from them and I won’t have enough if I’m not doing this yeah yeah so Katie I did want
38:09
to ask you about your how your mediumship developed now separate from your psychological practice your
38:15
psychology practice so so how did this start like what was your first
38:21
experience what did you then do to develop more because oh I just before I
38:26
let you answer that I want to thank you I I want to and I want to say what you said about um the mediumship connection
38:34
because I thought it was like the most piffy right on way to say it where you talked about because I’ve had some
38:39
experiences since my sister’s passed over where you talked about it being like a spotty cell phone connection like
38:45
it doesn’t change the grief and the loss because it’s not the same but I was just like yes that’s exactly what it’s like
38:50
it’s like there’s communication there but it’s not like weable or clear and they’re not in front of you you don’t
38:56
get to hug them and you don’t get to do stuff with them like you can feel them and you don’t always get to control when
39:01
that Call’s coming through when it’s cutting in and out yes like so it’s like there’s definitely comfort in that but
39:06
it’s like if someone you love moved halfway around the world and all you’re going to have is spotty Wi-Fi you’re like that’s really you’re still going to
39:12
grieve them you are but I thought like that’s is exactly what it’s
39:18
like like thank you so anyway so how did it start for you and how did you develop
39:24
it more yeah for me it’s really tight into my whole Awakening Journey it’s like a thread of the abilities that
39:31
opened up so it for me that started opening up when I spent about a year in
39:37
India and Nepal really do like meditation exploring energy work breath work like having a ton of space there
39:44
where I wasn’t working where I wasn’t in school what year was this year was it
39:49
2010 or 11 I believe okay yeah so a while ago yeah that’s that’s kind of
39:54
what opened up that whole spiritual side for me and I already in Psychology so now in hindsight I know in
40:02
terms of opening up intuition because I think we don’t get to control what our abilities are like we can explore them
40:09
but people seem to have natural ones that come through or not some people it’s mediumship some they get connection
40:15
with their guides some they may just have a feeling or knowing so I’d say for anyone wanting to develop it it is about
40:21
where are those spots in our day-to-day where we can get out of our rational mind and be more just in the moment when
40:27
that knowing can come through um I also have a free quiz on my website about like what’s your dominant feeling type
40:34
because that’s the one when we know what sensory Gateway or intuitive information comes through and I talked a bit about
40:41
when you say feeling when you say feeling type are you talking about the Claire’s or are you talking about feeling okay so the CLA okay yeah like
40:48
the the vision the auditory the feeling the just knowing those are ones we can
40:53
then kind of meditate and pay attention to that um okay and when we know our dominant Gateway we often want a
41:00
different Gateway like I want a message or I want it to come this way but it’s like it comes the way it comes so the
41:05
more we can reflect on that figure out which one is dominant for us the more we kind of intentionally
41:11
meditate intentionally practice with that one the other ones kind of just start opening on their own in their own way and I used to think I used to when I
41:19
started what was your what was your dominant one that open empathic empathic
41:24
yeah clear sentient and I like I I work with it’s one of my specialties now I’m like this one sucks you don’t get to
41:31
choose it like if you if you got to choose it I wouldn’t have picked this one in this culture and Society growing up with it I think it’s changing with
41:37
kids who have parents who are more open and conscious and aware of these energy Dynamics but but you also said that clar
41:42
sentient people especially clar sentient people need to know how to ground and like clear out all that stuff it can
41:49
become a gift I love it now and I actually I’m not as empathic as I used to be now it’s not dominant for me
41:54
anymore but I’ve worked very hard with that cuz I don’t I didn’t want it to be um and so I also did more I do a lot of
42:01
depth work subconscious work inner child healing work so I worked on shifting it because I it’s still there but it’s not
42:08
as dominant for me anymore because I built what’s dominant for you now it comes in all of them basically like they
42:15
evolve and change over time so I’ll get dreams like I mean when I’m working with people and I they they’re coming to me
42:20
for that reason I have that consent I’m working with psychology tools but I’m also listening with my
42:26
entire intuitive ability so it’s like I’ll see things hear things get get
42:31
messages get information and we can co-work with like what is coming up so
42:36
it can get to the root of things where um it can just help guide that
42:41
process to be like where’s the energy need to be released here it’s never overriding clients’s own experience and
42:48
it’s helping them connect with their own intuition as well but for me yeah it was it was when I came back to Canada there
42:55
was a number of years where I was kind of in the spiritual closet exploring those abilities and then working in mental health very like kept that very
43:02
separate and so there was an intuitive development Workshop I went to where it
43:07
was doing different experiments with people you don’t know with the different claes and the the empath empathic
43:15
ability like that was like a light switch moment it still really stands out to me today when I realize like working with different people I didn’t know and
43:21
describing like this is what I’m feeling in my body from okay now this is hurting the Pain’s radiating from here like this
43:27
is this is what the injury feels like to like this is how my heart feels the emotions and then that would change
43:32
dramatically and instantly with someone else and also getting the feedback from people who are strangers to me of like I
43:39
mean one of it it freaked this woman out where she was like I don’t I’m done like I don’t want to work anymore because it was just so she’s like it’s like you
43:45
looked into my soul and that was a watch and I was like so so did you feel you had this ability though before you went
43:50
to the workshop so you realized did but I had no idea up to that moment like so
43:56
until you started yeah just reading people cold that You’ never met and they were validating what you were saying
44:04
that was like really the first experience you had yeah it was a light bulb moment to be like oh like this
44:09
something’s actually happening here it’s very subtle it’s internally but then like right after that on the heels of
44:16
that was like how long has this been happening for me and I think that’s a limitation with just Western psychology
44:21
that treats us as these separate consciousness of like it’s just me with my individual thoughts and my individual brain
44:27
that it’s like no we’re connected to this field like we have our inner child we have this like ancestral piece and if
44:33
we have different intuitive abilities a a lot of the for my work as as an empath and empathic clients it’s if we just are
44:41
treating every emotion like it’s ours to process we’re never going to stop processing like we’re some for empathic
44:47
people it’s like we have to first be like is this even mine or not mine if it’s not mine it’s not mine to process
44:53
it’s not mine to like cry about Journal keep moving through cuz like the world has a lot of stuff to process like we’re never going to stop doing that I don’t
45:00
believe we’re here to like absorb the collective suffering but sometimes that can lead to a doorway to be like what
45:06
belief system what childhood experience like what what parts of me are taking this on and so I think there’s a balance
45:12
of like protecting grounding like clearing and protecting our energy and also like deeper healing work so we’re
45:17
kind of sealing up some of those energetic doorways where we’re we’re taking on too much at a metaphor I’ll
45:24
use is almost like a healthy cell membrane the cell membrane protects the cell from
45:29
just whatever is floating around in right the rest of it like there’s receptor cells where some comes in some
45:35
goes out but there is a separation within the organism and when we’re
45:40
empathic it’s almost like we don’t have an emotional membrane we’ll get it right to our heart we’ll be processing it we
45:45
might process it for people we love like we can be more distressed by their pain than they are like they’re just not doing anything we’re like I need like I
45:53
need you to feel better so I can feel better um and it’s not C dependency in the traditional psychology sense because
45:59
energetically like we’re taking it on so unless we can detach from that or like still again still hold space still love
46:06
them but not feel it more than they’re feeling it it’s a it’s a to you know you also I
46:14
think bring up something too where it’s like the the um we haven’t spoken about this the problem of time like the
46:20
construct of time um if you’re picking up on somebody’s stuff if you’re feeling their
46:26
stuff not only is it maybe not your job to process it but it’s
46:32
like is it is it old stuff that they’re carrying around like how old is this
46:38
stuff that they’re carrying the the reason I say this is just like was having a conversation with my mother yesterday and it was like going over in
46:45
a way old family stuff stuff that nothing can be done about and I’m not being I wasn’t being dismissive about it
46:50
it’s stuff that we’ve spoken about and processed and discussed repeatedly and it’s like when when when you’re talking
46:57
about to like you know people who have been deceased and deceased for years
47:04
MH they’re not they’re not suffering whatever you’re even talking about they
47:09
they can be though they can be with the mediumship style because it’s there and I think the part is the difference is
47:15
for the individual and this is just the way I approach it or the way I’ve learned to work with it for myself and
47:20
what I’ve seem can be helpful is if you as an individual are actually taking it on if you’re like this energy is with me
47:27
it’s not shifting it’s affecting me there’s usually something there for us to be like it can’t just it doesn’t just
47:35
attached to everybody it’s there’s a reason it’s there there’s something of like what part of me is allowing this in
47:41
what’s familiar here like where is the energetic kind of opening or weak point like what is this here to show me almost
47:48
like it’s for my it’s ultimately for me but there may be some healing work to do
47:54
not to process it all for them but sometimes there’s like this might lead to an inner child part of me or belief
47:59
system that will be helpful for me to shift and then that energy may not be gone but it’s not in my bubble anymore
48:06
for me with the mediumship ability it started to open up with the rest of the ability so I would get things about like people’s day what’s going on like really
48:13
clear detail that could be confirmed so that like that was really confirming to my rational mind like there’s something
48:19
here that’s really true um then i’ like I’d see experience have things about
48:25
different points in their child Ood things that were said to them like different key moments that had a lot of energy and then again like I wasn’t
48:31
sharing these with people directly but they I’d get the confirmation of like what they sense or experience same with
48:37
kind of like past life stuff and then things with like other energies or kind of spirits medium coming through so like
48:44
and and the tricky part with mediumship abilities it’s like these are people these are hu people who have lived who
48:50
have passed on they can either be showing up to help like the dream like you had is very common where it’s like
48:56
I’m okay I love you don’t worry very peaceful I’m gone like and that’s just
49:01
very healing it feels very good it’s very loving sometimes they’re showing up because they like want to help you but
49:07
it’s like any relative who loves you and wants to help you like we all have maybe that great aunt or someone who like wants to give you advice about don’t do
49:14
this or that and you’re like thank you like that is totally based on your experience and your belief systems and
49:21
like thank you but no thanks and people can get into trouble when they’re like oh this person showed up so I need to break up with them or I need to make
49:26
this decision or like I need to be really scared it’s like no they mean well but you don’t take all advice in
49:32
every area from every member of your family so just because they’ve crossed over it doesn’t mean they’ve worked through all their stuff like sometimes
49:39
they actually need help or like they’re holding on to Old belief systems or old emotions yeah this is interesting Katie
49:46
because this is this is different than a lot of the conversations I’ve had so I tend to and I mean by all means push
49:53
back on me I tend to think that like my sister for examp had a borderline personality disorder she died it’s
50:00
almost 12 years ago one of the things I was relieved about and it also could be based on like the kind of contact I had
50:06
with her that she was not suffering from that personality disorder in the same way that she had been relieved of it
50:12
that I I am not I have not been under the impression that like that some of the psychological problems that people
50:18
may have in this life like I told you my mother and I were talking about my grandmother who was a
50:23
narcissist I don’t think she’s particularly narcissistic anymore but you’re saying your experience as a
50:29
medium is that some of that stuff I guess Beyond maybe psycholog
50:34
comp indivual like the energy can still be the same I mean and because I will say that most mediums I mean I don’t
50:41
know that there’s one medium that does not report that people’s energy is still People’s Energy whatever the
50:47
Consciousness is that there’s something it can change and evolve and it’s it’s individual for each and again this is
50:53
just my experience it’s more like if it’s more the trans personal psychology that can like hold hold a framework for
50:59
this but um and and again I I have enough faith in it because I’ve had it through like practice through sessions
51:05
through clients where it’s like there’s no way I’d know the level of detail and they can confirm all of it um and so I
51:11
think there’s the part where yeah like some people it’s different for every individual like some like I think once
51:18
we’re are are free of this physical aspect it’s like then the time space is different it’s like that that Soul can
51:24
transition very quickly into light love beautiful space but they can also get
51:29
stuck in this kind of limbo space where they don’t realize like they’re they’re still holding a lot of the emotions
51:35
there’s not as much time gone by if people get into like haunting spaces or like this space that doesn’t feel good
51:41
it feels like heavy scary sad this it’s like that’s usually more of a stuck and
51:46
sometimes they’re a bit both in between like they’re good but then they’re like oh I’m worried and this it’s like oh you still got like a layer here MH coming up
51:52
and again how that’s going to impact each individual like here in the physical is very different cuz not everyone has mediumship abilities not
51:59
everyone’s like path is to learn through some of that so some people have different energetic boundaries already where it’s like they might get the love
52:05
part but like the other stuff is not affecting them at all but as a medium your what’s your
52:12
experience though is that a lot of um Spirits you’ve had contact with are
52:17
still working through this is is it’s both I’ve had experience of all the Spectrum like sometimes it’s they can
52:23
come through and it’s like super beautiful they’re there to support it’s loving like they’re in a great place other times it’s and again I’m
52:30
also I’m not like a me just I’m not a medium I have mediumship abilities as a
52:35
like psychologist who works with trans personal so I’m also working with people who are like doing deeper work for
52:40
themselves so we’re usually working on how to connect more with that higher self aspect as well as like how to clear
52:47
out the old stuff that’s getting in the way and how to develop those abilities so that that type of work comes with
52:53
more of like oh interesting there’s like ancestral stuff here or there’s some energy here that’s you are picking up on
53:01
there’s something here but it’s not yours to carry or heal for them like we can help them we can help bridge them
53:07
because I think that intuitive again we’re we’re not their guides like we’re having a human experience we may be able
53:12
to call in help for them and be like who or what can help them we might be able to help shift it in our kind of family
53:17
epigenetic ancestral field um but we’re not it’s not like we have to do the same
53:22
level of work for them that we would do if it’s our own personal trauma it might be like a session or two and they’re
53:28
moving on how would you um separately Define if you would like ancestral
53:34
fields and generational trauma uh it’s very similar except it’s
53:39
like generational trauma can exist within the ancestral field but so can all the gifts and the love and like
53:47
ancestral holds everything where is the generational trauma is just one aspect of it of like this started somewhere
53:52
back and now it’s rippled out in terms of the epigenetics it’s like oftentimes if it’s like our parents did the best
53:58
they could if they were raised by a narcissist like that is going to infuse their parenting like each generation
54:04
like it does sometimes it’s like there’s a part of it that’s our individual we’re working with our inner child but it’s
54:09
like it didn’t start with us it didn’t even start with our parents it goes back and when you get into that intuitive
54:15
realm sometimes we need to work with just loosening up enough of the energy that the individual thems can start to
54:21
be more free of it yeah yeah doesn’t yeah
54:27
I I just it’s just something that I know I ask about this too because I have a friend who I can see very clearly is
54:32
dealing with like generational trauma and I you know I look at the energetic p uh patterns in my family you know I
54:39
would say you know I’m 56 so it’s like I’m sort of well pasted looking at like what my father did and what my mother
54:46
did because it’s if you look further back you can see like I will say for my
54:51
parents I’m not saying everybody’s parents are like this but it’s not like my parents didn’t give anything that
54:56
they had it’s just what they they couldn’t give what they didn’t have that they didn’t get from their parents that
55:02
didn’t get from their parents that and you know you don’t have to go too far back for people to have been living not
55:09
everybody’s family but I mean I had like poor Farmers not too far back there who is just like trying again survival just
55:16
survival yeah exactly when you’re in survival mode all the time yeah there’s
55:22
not you you can’t expand in the other ways it’s just not how it works 150 years ago for sure yeah yeah and
55:30
even now for people who are still in survival now like yeah yeah exactly exactly um so Katie I’m gonna ask you
55:38
sort of the lightning round of questions the final questions that I ask all my guests if that’s okay for sure so what
55:44
does a well-lived life look like to you yeah I think it is more of a whole
55:49
like a whole life in all the areas too so again in that capitalistic side of
55:56
things we’re so conditioned to just go after success like more more and more it’s more the okay what where is the
56:02
purpose the passion like how do we create that in the world have good relationships have moments like have
56:10
those times where we can come back to peace connection um those deeper
56:16
values and and relationships yeah yeah other people community yeah what do you
56:25
suspect is the true nature of reality there a lot to cover here yeah I don’t think I I don’t know if our human Minds
56:31
can ever fully understand it but I do my experience of it it is I think at there’s that soul level where it is all
56:39
loving all connected everything’s all good and we’re also experiencing like the human
56:45
reality too like that’s how we’re filtering it and that’s what we got to work with as well yeah the
56:52
Paradox um how do you think people can take care to be better connected to
56:57
their soul or their Consciousness yeah just recognizing that it’s real like it’s not too it’s not woo
57:04
it’s very real there’s science that backs it up um it’s very it can be very helpful and valuable starting with
57:11
having some time for it like it you don’t have to take off for years or anything like that it might be five or
57:17
10 minutes in the day like just getting out of that thinking mind being open to exploring like how does that come
57:23
through for you developing that ability over time thinking of it like a muscle that the more you practice it the more
57:28
it’s going to come through um finding those people and communities where you can talk about it or develop it that are
57:35
those safe spaces because it develops over time yeah when you
57:42
die what do you hope to learn or find that’s a good one yeah I think I’d
57:51
be I feel like I’ve had glimpses of it already so it’s like be cool to go through and I hope that like in the
57:57
process of dying that I’m just very peaceful and excited for like going back
58:02
home there yeah yeah I have to tell you you know it’s a funny thing that
58:08
happened to me um this is a few years ago I was diagnosed with multiple Myoma but like the runup to it was really bad
58:14
it was during the pandemic and my diagnosis was delayed and I was bedridden and then I was in a wheelchair
58:20
and I mean for some months there I was very close I was close to death like it
58:25
was because of the delay we did not know that was what was going on and it made me so
58:33
curious about crossing over and what’s on the other side and it took some time for me
58:39
to realize that no you’re still here you better keep staying
58:44
invested like you’re you’re still yet you’re still in your body um so don’t
58:50
totally like detach where you become like all I see is what’s over you know what’s next because for now I’m still
58:57
here but I I’m with you in that feeling of like you know I hope it’s a peaceful
59:03
transition whenever it happens but I have a curiosity like through your mediumship
59:08
experiences I’m sure you do too where it’s like you know something interesting is over over there and and so do I and
59:16
so to many people and it’s a little anyway we’re still here got work to do whatever the responsibility is so
59:23
speaking of work to do so where can people find you and the good work that you do yeah my website’s probably the
59:29
best place it’s KD Turners psychology.com okay I love it when it’s one stop
59:35
shopping yeah well the quiz is there there’s a free there’s a free like six week challenge with the journal
59:41
exercises for people to like deepen their own intuition and have that like accountability container they can find
59:47
out more about the book exent and do you have any final thoughts for the audience
59:52
today yeah just thanks for listening and I’d also encourage people to reflect on
59:58
was there anything that kind of pinged for them that they even wanted to pull up this episode or find your podcast
1:00:04
because often there is those little guidance of like hey like there’s a feeling an
1:00:10
energy that might already be guing you yeah yeah thank you Katie Turner for being on
1:00:16
the show today yeah thank you so much for having me thanks for watching click to join us
1:00:23
on another journey and don’t forget to subscribe [Music]
