1018 Mary Frances O’Connor – The Journeying Soul Podcast

On today’s show, Helena Strauss is joined in deeply insightful conversation by Dr. Mary-Frances O’Connor, a leading expert in the psychology and physiology of grief as they talk about the profound ways loss affects not just our emotions, but our physical health too.

In this episode, Dr. O’Connor delves into:

The connection between grief and physical health: Learn about the increased risks of heart attack, stroke, and other illnesses after the loss of a loved one.
Psychoneuroimmunology: Understand how our psychological states, nervous system, and immune system are intricately linked.
Attachment theory and the “we” brain: Explore how our brains process the loss of a loved one and the impact on our identity.
The role of inflammation in grief: Discover how grief can trigger inflammation and affect various bodily systems.
Practical advice for navigating grief: Dr. O’Connor shares valuable insights on seeking medical care and supporting those who are grieving.
Consciousness and the body: a discussion on where consciousness resides, and the body’s role in memory and reaction.
External pacemakers: How the loss of a loved one disrupts daily routines and physiological rhythms.

Dr. O’Connor, author of “The Grieving Brain” and her new book, “The Grieving Body,” brings a unique perspective, blending scientific research with personal experience to shed light on the complex nature of grief. Whether you’ve experienced loss yourself or want to better understand the grieving process, this conversation offers valuable knowledge and compassionate guidance.

🕵️‍♂️ Where to Find Our Guest

https://maryfrancesoconnor.org/

📚Books by Mary Frances O’Connor

The Grieving Body

The Grieving Brain

Sip and Support the Journeying Soul. Get the Emerson Paraphrase mug inspired by the lightning round with our very first guest.

More About Our Guest

MARY-FRANCES O’CONNOR, PhD is a professor of psychology at the University of Arizona, where she directs the Grief, Loss and Social Stress (GLASS) Lab, investigating the effects of grief on the brain and the body. Her book The Grieving Brain was included on Oprah’s list of Best Books to Comfort a Grieving Friend. O’Connor holds a PhD in clinical psychology from the University of Arizona and completed a post-doctoral fellowship in psychoneuroimmunology at the UCLA Semel Institute for Neuroscience and Human Behavior. Having grown up in Montana, she now lives in Tucson, Arizona.

For more visit: https://maryfrancesoconnor.org/

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Transcript

0:00
when that person is gone there’s an immediate physiological reaction it is it is that some aspect of
0:08
us is tampered with is amputated right and
0:14
so how do I operate in the world say as a widowed person that’s not the same as
0:21
being a single person it’s also not the same as being a married person that’s my identity that I now have to figure out
0:28
how does that what do I what does that person do or how do I think of myself as
0:35
a parent if my child has died right so these changes to our sense of our self
0:42
are not only profound and difficult losses to deal with but I think also
0:50
research is starting to show have this um uh physiological component especially
0:55
in the brain as well
1:04
[Music]
What is Psychoneuroimmunology?
1:13
I’d like to welcome to the journeying soul Mary Francis o Conor how are you doing today you know it’s a beautiful
1:20
day outside and I am happy to be talking about this with so many people I’m glad
1:28
to be helping to spread the word because this is a a very important topic for me and a lot of things in your book also
1:33
personally resonated with me but we’ll get to that so I just want to start with the the setting out there that you are a
1:40
doctor of psychology that’s right but you also did a fellowship in psychon
1:47
neuroimmunology that’s correct so my graduate training was in Clinical Psychology and I’m uh uh I yes trained
1:55
as a clinical psychologist but on the research side I studied psychop phology and then as you say psychon
2:02
neuroimmunology as well can you can you explain what that is for people who are listening who may not know yeah you know
2:09
psychon Immunology or we just call it pni because that’s way too many syllables um pni is a field that
2:18
developed mostly in the 90s a little bit in the late 80s and it really uh was an attempt to
2:25
bring together what we understand about psychology our psychological States our motivations and emotions and so forth
2:32
with what we know about the nervous system the central nervous system our brain and our autonomic nervous system
2:38
or sort of we think of it as cardiovascular uh with what we know with what was really a growing and continues
2:45
to be a growing understanding of the immune system uh inflammation and um
2:52
fighting off infection and so forth because we discovered that of course although you know Psychiatry Immunology
2:59
in neurology or different departments in a hospital our body doesn’t know that those are different right so there’s a
3:07
lot of interconnections between those aspects of our functioning and understanding them in a research way
Loss and Physical Health Impact
3:14
means actually sort of looking at them at the same time in the same person um I just want to share with you
3:22
because this is a um you know you have a similar in your in the book you talk about your
3:29
diagnosis of Ms and how you felt that it had a connection to the illness and
3:36
death of your mom though you are a very good scientist and are very uh quick to
3:41
point out that it’s not necessarily A causal relationship but there’s a
3:47
correlation there I also have a similar story not with Ms but I was diagnosed with multiple myom about five years ago
3:54
yeah which I very much felt was the in had a connection to the
4:01
caretaking and death of my sister in 2013 and then my father before that with Parkinson’s and then some terrible
4:07
things that happened the funeral that were really just a trauma on top of everything and I I’m completely with you
4:13
in that sense of like yeah I may have had a chemical exposure but then the
4:18
emotional stress the physical stress yeah um may have very much accelerated
4:24
my diagnosis so um right it is it is often the timing right that that uh
4:30
similar you know had risk factors already might have gone on to develop Ms but the question is why at that time
4:37
right when when our bodies are under a lot of stress they’re not able to do the repair and restoration that usually
4:44
keeps a lot of our disorders in check uh and so the timing as you say um when
4:50
your body is under greater stress emotional physical then that can be a moment where our predispositions kind of
4:58
emerge yeah and it’s not that it’s not in your Consciousness when these things are going on that you don’t feel well
5:04
right like you don’t feel energized you don’t feel happy you don’t feel peaceful so why wouldn’t yeah the rest of your
5:12
cells be in that same camp that’s right yeah I did want to um also just touch on
5:18
something this is kind of minor but in the beginning of your book um you said your goal was to help people make a
5:25
meaningful life in the face of terrible loss yeah which I think is lovely but I also had
5:32
to ask you that when you wrote it and the way you wrote it it reminded me of the you know the very famous Mary Oliver
5:38
line of like what are you going to do with what you with your one wild and precious life which I might not be
5:44
quoting exactly I love that line yes I heard the Echo and I thought I wonder if
5:51
this is Mary francis’s way of saying that yes my my closest friend uh is a
5:57
huge Mary Oliver fan and has her poetry that she has handwritten in a number of
6:03
the cupboards inside a number of her cupboards uh in in her house and that is
6:10
one that we look at often um and and yeah that that is in part my way of
6:16
trying to convey her wonderful sentiment I’m glad I caught it I a
6:22
little English student didn’t me though I didn’t study that in school was like so anyway back to our our main subject
6:30
so one of the things I discovered when I went through the losses in my family was
6:37
really how bad we are at grief um I don’t know if um we were ever great at
6:45
grief and I’ll just keep it kind of in an American context because different different places have different cultures
6:50
I I know there was a time when obviously people wed their own loved ones at home
6:55
and dug their own Graves and you would put on an armband or morning clothes so at Le society around you the people around you
7:01
would know you had been through something um but I’m aware and I I know it’s sort of a starting point for you
7:07
the fact that um when people have losses especially the those very immediate
7:13
people to like the ground zero of a loss they have increased risk of stro stroke and heart attack which to me is like
7:20
kind of common knowledge now but I really don’t think it is common knowledge but your work really dives
7:25
into what I would say are sort of those longer taale illnesses that that are the after effect now
7:34
outside of um you know your Ms diagnosis what was the thing that put you
7:42
into I don’t want to say devouring this as a subject but really just diving into it as a subject and trying to educate
7:48
people about it yeah I think it’s just as you say you know as a scientist I I
7:54
try to hold on to really clear facts and then sort of work to create more
7:59
knowledge around those facts and and as you said one of the first ones was really um that for example um we know
8:07
from very large replicated studies uh in the first three months
8:13
after the death of his wife a man is almost twice as likely to die of a heart
8:19
attack uh compared to a man who’s married during that time and it’s similar for women
8:25
1.88% uh sorry uh 1.8 times uh more like to die of a heart attack and while that
8:33
is a very clear fact that we can hold on to then the questions of course are but
8:39
why how does that work what are the mechanisms in our body that could account for these very clear
8:46
physiological and medical outcomes when you know the death is of someone we’re
8:52
in a relationship with which you know that love and bonding and and even grief can feel quite ephemeral you know how do
8:59
we how do we pin that down and as you say I think the second fact that has
9:04
really prompted me to stay in this area is that it isn’t just cardiovascular
9:11
deaths it isn’t just dying of a broken heart um but what we see is that there
9:16
is an increase in all cause mortality for more than a year after the death of
9:23
a loved one so that means deaths from COPD and colon cancer and uh diabetes
9:31
and pneumonia and right and so as I was studying these things uh in in my
9:38
training the question was what on Earth what mechanism on Earth could cause this
9:45
many different kinds of outcomes for our body and that was when thinking about
9:51
the endocrine system our hormones and the immune system and and especially
9:57
inflammation um those of course affect every single organ of our body and so in
10:04
my research early on and now in bigger studies than mine uh we do see that
10:09
inflammation is increased in uh bereavement so that’s you know
10:15
inflammation is your joints hurt more when you have rheumatoid arthritis and it’s harder to breathe when you have
10:21
asthma right so the way that inflammation is affecting all those systems might be one key link I almost
Awareness of Grief in Medical Care
10:28
look at inflam though is like um it’s kind of like um hypertension on on steroids that’s such
10:36
a mixed metaphor but it’s like the way hypertension was always called a silent killer yeah inflammation unless you are
10:42
really having the aches and pains yeah you don’t really know that it’s going on
10:48
necessarily um do you feel that there should be more awareness in
10:54
like medical practices and among the bereaved like you did mention in your book very Sage advice you know go to a doctor
11:03
get your check up after which I think most people don’t know to do yeah um
11:08
that would be a great thing to sort of get out there to people it’s like and and obviously as we know for so many
11:13
people in grief they might be taking care of like figuring out how to do the other half of the stuff that went on in
11:19
their house or estate stuff or just trying to get back to work but in there they need to go to um a doctor and also
11:27
I mean how do you feel about educating doctors to be screening a little bit better when those patients come in and
11:33
say oh yes my soand so died two months ago or something like that yeah it’s a combination just as you
11:40
said there’s a general grief literacy that would be helpful so that you know
11:47
as you said we we often have to focus on many things when we’re bereaved and also our
11:53
motivation can be pretty and energy can be pretty low when we’re bereaved in some ways this is also that and our role
12:01
as someone supporting someone who is grieving right so how long has it been since you last had your mammogram have
12:06
you had a colonoscopy you know since you turned 50 or have you been to your dentist this year for your just regular
12:14
cleaning these are the types of just regular normal medical care that would
12:19
pick up things like hypertension or um uh you know an abnormality on a blood
12:26
test or a um or an MRI right are going to be the things that then we would look
12:31
to if there were problems now the question around educating our our
12:38
medical community clearly more education needs to be done I will say there is a
12:43
body of grief research that is really developing right now and I was actually
12:50
the substance abuse mental health agency samsa uh hosted what was called an
12:55
expert panel on bereavement care last May and this is part of their um uh
13:03
mandate to try and understand where is the evidence right now and what could we
13:09
do to improve surveillance and then followup right and and intervention if
13:16
necessary the the the knowledge base of what is the
13:21
most effective way to assess for bereavement medical outcomes and how to
13:26
intervene with bereavement medical outcomes is still in early stages so we have some of this early data like some
13:34
of the studies I’ve been describing that we have done in my own lab and in others around the world but we’re still early
13:41
on if you’re going to ask are you bereaved and find out what someone’s grief severity is like we need to have
13:49
clear guidelines for then what does the medical professional do so my fear for
13:55
example is that suddenly people would be put on anti-depressants which we know is not uh is it can work for depression but
14:03
is not usually what people are experiencing during bement and so we also don’t want them to be asking about
14:10
bereavement and then making incorrect interventions so I think we’re just
14:15
really starting to come together um to come up with policy guidelines and training guidelines for our medical
14:23
community yeah I mean you bring yes absolutely that is the exact um truth
14:28
it’s like if you’re going to test somebody or screen somebody right then for what end if you’re not if you’re not
14:35
then treating them so exactly so it kind of gets left there yeah um on this
Consciousness, Immune System, and Bereavement
14:40
podcast you know it’s it’s I’m changing the focus of the podcast but whereas this portion of the podcast will
14:46
probably just be about loss and bereavement things like that but it has been about healing loss connecting with
14:53
spirit and manifesting a new life yeah and in the connecting with Spirit portion you know we’ve had a lot of
14:59
discussion about where Consciousness comes from and afterdeath Communications and things like that your book though
15:08
did seem to um resonate with the idea that Consciousness doesn’t just reside
15:14
in the brain to the extent that we have any idea what Consciousness is and where it might be but
15:21
that your you you’re you’re talking about a lot of cases where like the immune system it’s not just in the brain
15:28
though you there I know towards the end of the book you are you do discuss how the brain and the immune system talk to
15:34
each other how they speak to each other but how do you feel about the idea of Consciousness in all the cells in the
15:41
body I think it really depends a lot on what we mean by Consciousness so to the degree that we mean awareness the
15:48
ability for the for the being to be aware the human being to be aware uh
15:53
that I think does reside in the brain however as you said the interconnected information
15:59
between the brain and the body is extensive and uh and I think that if
16:06
we’re talking about whether the immune system for example has a memory of something that it has previously
16:13
seen uh you know this is we know this is how the immune system works it has a memory for oh I’ve seen this virus
16:20
before I’m already partway you know up to making a strong response for this
16:25
this virus I’ve seen before that um kind of memory we know is a part of um the
16:32
immune system however that is not available to conscious awareness um so
16:39
that’s sort of where I I fall in that in that sort of question right
Grief, Loss, and Physiological Impact
16:47
okay so another thing that you discuss in your book is attachment theory in
16:53
regards to loss yeah and I was particularly moved about how I mean I’ve
16:58
often looked at my loss and like when I’ve spoken with other people when they’re going through their their time
17:04
of grieving is just how the um the biggest I think the biggest thing that
17:10
happens when we have these losses is your identity is put up into the into
17:15
the air and that’s the thing that’s very um I think I’ve always thought is the most difficult you come at it from a
17:21
point of view about attachment Theory where you say the brain is going to look for the US like that it’s this concept
17:29
of us yeah when we bond with someone when we fall in love with our infant or you
17:36
know fall in love with the person who becomes our spouse um that person is
17:42
encoded in our brain I mean quite literally physiologically encoded in our brain and we know more and more from
17:48
Neuroscience that there are parts of our brain that understand okay this is me and then a parts of the brain that
17:55
understand okay this is them but parts of the brain that are respond to we that
18:00
as you say are encoding in us and that happens we can even see that in pair
18:07
bonded animals right so these little vs these little rodents that run around in
18:12
North America who pair bond for Life once they have fallen for their specific
18:17
other V they will spend the rest of their life with them and what we know is
18:23
that those physiological changes in the brain are happening even there right even without sort of all the conscious
18:29
elaboration of falling in love and having a wedding um so what that means
18:35
is when that person is gone there’s an immediate physiological
18:41
reaction it is it is that some aspect of us
18:47
is tampered with is amputated right and I think while metaphorically that feels
18:53
right to a lot of us who have had grief I think there’s a way in which it’s actually oper that way in the brain as
19:00
well and I I think even our language right can be helpful in thinking about
19:07
that so for example I might use the word daughter to describe myself right if
19:12
someone says uh you know describe yourself that’s probably one of the words that would come to mind but the
19:19
word daughter implies two people in the world doesn’t it right the word spouse
19:26
implies two people even the word even the word best friend implies to
19:32
people even though it’s a word that I would use to describe myself and so how
19:37
do I operate in the world say as a widowed person that’s not the same as
19:43
being a single person it’s also not the same as being a married person that’s my identity that I now have to figure out
19:50
how does that what do I what does that person do or how do I think of myself as
19:57
a parent if my child has died right so these changes to our sense of our self
20:04
are not only profound and difficult losses to deal with but I think also
20:12
research is starting to show have this um uh physiological component especially
20:17
in the brain as well and also in regards to you know you can see when you you when you’re looking at it through that
20:24
attachment Theory the US framing how it could so easily interact with your
20:29
immune system which is always on the alert for like the not me like these are
20:35
our cells this is what we’re doing what’s this thing doing here and when you scramble that idea of like this is
20:41
me this is immune system is going to be yeah the technical term right yes
20:49
exactly the the exploding head emoji right I don’t think of it so much I
20:54
don’t think the immune system suddenly recognized that other person’s cells as
21:01
though they are part of oneself so just to you know I I know that’s a little in the weeds but I do think of it this way
21:07
the absence of that person is going to increase our stress hormones our cortisol our adrenaline well I’m those
21:15
yes I’m not saying it doesn’t I’m not saying the immune system recognizes the the other God we’re gonna go like total
21:21
I am now here anyway the other but that the idea of the eye yes has shifted so
21:29
it’s like it could it has to I would assume there’s there’s that recalibration that goes on with but what is I in terms of the fact that it’s
21:36
supposed to be protecting eye yeah yeah I I do think I do think
21:42
you’re right that it can cause uh the the recognition that part of me is
21:47
missing part of us is missing um has clear impacts on cortisol and adrenaline
21:53
and those have clear impacts in reducing immune function yeah yeah um you also
22:00
talked about the other our others as external pacemakers which I
22:08
really I I thought that was beautiful I thought that was a beautiful way to to put it and also an accurate way to think
22:14
about it that when you especially when you’re living with someone their habits in the house do help set your habits in
22:20
the house and it can be so disorienting oh so disorienting right yeah and the
22:27
and even I mean again thinking about sort of even just really concrete examples I know that you
22:34
know when I come home from work and I get that hug from my spouse my heart
22:39
rate literally decelerates a little bit and my blood pressure literally drops a couple millimeters Mercury so in that
22:47
sense his presence is genuinely directly sort of impacting my cardiovascular
22:53
function and if right now I think about going home and getting a hug from my
22:58
spouse just bringing him to mind also can decelerate my heart a
23:04
little bit right so it’s the it’s the how do we transform our understanding of
23:10
this relationship that we’ve had how do we transform it so it continues to have
23:16
these positive um physiological impacts for us even while we know that we won’t
23:22
get that physical hug again yeah you this
Balancing Loss and Restoration Stressors
23:30
yeah those stressors which reminds me of something else that you write about in the book about restoration stressers
23:37
yeah which I thought was so brilliant because you know I’ve read a lot on
23:42
Grief been as you know been through it but that was the first time I came across that that the concept of that and
23:48
I thought that is really so key yeah as for everybody who’s grieving to have an
23:53
understanding that this really I almost think that’s the one of the primary things that’s stressing you when you’re
23:58
grieving is try is trying to figure out the restoration can you just explain restoration stressors to people a little
24:05
bit Yeah so this Theory which we sometimes call the Dual process model
24:11
Theory um was developed by brilliant researchers Maggie stroba and Hank schut
24:18
and they realized as they were doing grief research and um uh reading about
24:24
grief research that we were very focused on the loss oriented stressors for good reason right so focused on oh my
24:31
goodness now we have to deal with waves of grief now we have to deal with um
24:36
wanting to avoid certain things right and and the difficulties that can cause we we have to deal with challenges in
24:44
concentrating and you know all the things that are related to the loss but their brilliant contribution was that’s
24:51
only part of the stresses we have to deal with the other half is what they called so loss oriented stressors they
24:58
called restoration oriented stressors and this is how do we live life now
25:05
right so this is how do I deal with all the tasks you just said it a few minutes
25:10
ago in this podcast how do I deal with all the tasks I’ve never done the taxes before I don’t have all the passwords
25:17
you know how do I figure out I remember in a study we were doing in my lab uh
25:24
one of the um one of the young widows talked about um having to have conversations with her son where her
25:31
husband her deceased husband should really have been the one having those conversations and trying to figure out
25:37
how to find the words right that’s not specifically about the loss it’s about
25:43
how do I live life now in a way that makes sense that can be meaningful that
25:49
sort of incorporates what has happened into my day-to-day ongoing existence but
25:55
in fact I think the most brilliant part about what they’ve contributed with this dual process model is that they talk
26:02
about oscillation so they say when people are able to sort of go back and
26:09
forth between dealing with the loss and dealing with restoration that that is
26:14
actually the sign of mental health people can get sort of stuck just thinking about the loss and other people
26:21
can get stuck just thinking about restoration right like how do I make all the changes how do I make it you know
26:27
how do I working so hard and blah blah blah and it’s really the ability to do both um that that contributes to sort of
26:34
ongoing mental health yeah I mean again I just think it’s a wonderful concept I
26:42
mean I I focused with when I worked with other grief counselors we always talk about the phase of like making meaning
26:48
where you’ve kind of started to synthesize the who the new you will be but it really is so um difficult whether
26:56
it’s just figuring out well who Am I now as well as like how do I run the dishwasher or the you know stuff things
27:03
like that right what will I do in retirement you know my all of my retirement plans are built around us
27:10
what how do I even begin to think about what that looks like yeah yeah yeah I
27:15
also love that you said towards the end of your book that you are striving for a world in which no one Grieves alone yeah
27:23
how’s that going so this is the
27:28
motto of our local Tucson area bereavement support group and
27:34
specifically it’s really focused around um children who are grieving a loved one
27:39
although there’s um there’s groups for parents and and even young adults but um
27:46
I think it is such a brilliant way of putting it that they’ve come up with and I think you know we forget that grief
27:55
affects everyone but it doesn’t affect everyone in the same way right and so
28:01
figuring out what does this person need to support their grieving process it it
28:08
takes time and effort and questions and trying things and providing that support
Addressing Disparity in Bereavement Response
28:15
we forget also I think that you know bereavement is a health disparity
28:20
meaning that you know if in different communities that we have different uh
28:26
life expectancies which of course course we know is true then it means that in some communities people are dying more
28:33
frequently we sometimes call it too many too soon meaning that um for example in
28:41
the pandemic uh black children were twice as likely to lose their
28:46
caregiver uh and Native American children were four times more likely to lose their caregiver and so thinking
28:54
about if we’re going to improve grief literacy if we’re going to improve grief support across the population we have to
29:00
think about how are we going to do that in a way that makes sense for what different groups of people are coping
29:08
with yeah I think too that kind of it it brushes up against so badly like um
29:15
people’s idea of Shame attached to loss even though they don’t speak about it
29:21
where you know there’s kind of societal abandonment or pull away
29:27
because this is not representing Health this is not representing wealth Excellence whatever
29:34
the thing that they you know people are chasing and yet I mean my biggest frustration is just the fact that we’re
29:42
all Mortal we’re all going to die yeah um yet obviously many people go through
29:48
can go through so many decades of their life without even really being touched by a real loss and they have no
29:55
vocabulary for it right which in a lot of ways makes their their own end of life much worse
30:00
because right you know their first boss could be like losing a parent in their 60s and it’s like I don’t have any
30:07
skills to know I don’t necessarily have any experience to understand uh what I’m
30:13
what I’m going through and also I don’t necessarily have any skills of how do I soothe myself what actually works to
30:20
comfort me if you if you don’t have a sense of what those things might even be it’s going to be a much harder process
30:28
yeah I personally I just always wish we could that for grief there can be a good
30:35
part of tribal energy you know we see a lot of tribal activity in politics and religion and sports and it’s not always
30:41
like high level tribal activity yeah but tribes could be very good when a member
30:46
of the tribe died and everybody recognized it and recognized the loss and H anyway that’s just my pie in the
30:53
sky like hm that that could help I think that Community response can be so
31:00
important I mean we know how important social support is in having someone
31:05
adapt well when they’re grieving and it’s interesting you know there are many ways in which uh even within our
31:13
American context we see things like this like um uh Jewish communities that sit
31:19
Shiva right for seven days with their community members or um I was reminded
31:26
of a of a wonderful example recently there’s a uh uh an Irish
31:33
football organization um and they have sort of like we do a little bit like we do
31:39
little league here there are um these Irish football associations in every little Hometown you know and the the
31:47
head of this organization Irish organization was talking about how they very specifically teach the club members
31:55
how do you how do you respond when there’s a death in your community and talked about teaching the kids you know
32:01
when you go over to the house because they’re having a wake you can bring the chairs from the football club right so
32:09
bringing the chairs from the football club is a really uh instrumental way of helping this family who probably doesn’t
32:15
have enough chairs in the house right and I just thought that was such a lovely example of something very basic
32:21
but let’s approach this situation let’s engage with this family that’s grieving
32:27
and here’s some of like even some things you might do I thought that was just a marvelous example yeah I’d love for that
32:33
just spr because yeah that’s a great example you know usually the way that fire departments and police departments
32:38
handle it when they’ve had a loss in terms of wrapping around the family that’s it but yeah but we don’t have a
32:44
lot of it so um so in reading your book I could not help
32:50
but Wonder in a way like what is the what would the end game be here like
32:56
would we be talking about you know developing I mean and I’m not saying this is what you’re about but
33:02
would we be developing a pill to treat grief you know so we mitigate the physical ailments I’m thinking is it
33:08
going to be some sort of AI Matrix thing where you can you know put somebody in a
33:14
virtual reality and ease them through it I was like I couldn’t help but wonder what the
33:20
future is going to hold in terms of how Society might want to handle these
Post Vivo Care
33:25
grieving people yeah I think you know one of the things I’m really struck by
33:31
is that grief is the totally natural response to loss and we have been doing
33:38
this for as long as there have been relationships our brain our body our
33:44
mind our relationships our community can develop the skills of how to respond to
33:50
loss and you know I think of it this may sound like a silly analogy but I think
33:56
of it a little bit like pregnancy so grief is not a disease grief is not a
34:02
disorder just like pregnancy is not a disease and yet it’s a very
34:07
physiological event right and it’s a time of increased risk for other medical
34:14
outcomes gestational diabetes and hypertension and so forth and because we
34:19
understand that our society is developed whole prenatal care programs right and
34:25
to some degree even postnatal care programs so that we can help educate
34:31
people who are going to have a baby what is what are some of the physiological changes you can expect and then also
34:38
doing um assessment of is this process going in the way we expect it to are you
34:45
having the physical changes that are natural in this process and then if they’re not now you already have a
34:52
system set up so that we can intervene if things start to go Ary so I think
34:57
ultimately of this as being kind of a great model for when someone is bereaved
35:03
teaching them about what some of the physical reactions are very likely to be then also having a system of care in
35:11
place so that if they start to recognize okay so during these waves of grief my
35:17
heart rate goes up my blood pressure goes up and then it comes down again right that’s the whole point of it being
35:22
a wave our body is built to do that resiliently as we understand and the the
35:28
the the impact of this loss but to recognize but my body could get outside
35:35
the physical parameters of what is normal and healthy and if that starts
35:40
happening I really need to be seeing someone who can help me either with the
35:46
skills of how to manage the grief that I’m experiencing or uh if we get outside
35:52
the bounds of you know blood pressure or uh inflammation I mean just even if you’re
35:57
not cycling and you’re just staying there yeah yep exactly so I I think that
36:03
that’s you know I I think that’s a very doable social change that we could have
36:09
yeah okay well Mary Francis if you print another edition of grieving body which
36:15
I’ll hold up because I did before I think that should be like the the new sort of end word is that we need some
36:22
sort of I mean I’m going to call it post Vivo I don’t know it’s not pratal what do you want
36:28
a post Vio program support yes post Vivo
36:33
care I love that I love that well you brought up prenatal so I just followed
36:39
you down the road right all right so Mary Francis let’s wrap this up so we can send you on your
Lightning Round
36:45
way yeah are you ready for my lightning round of questions I’d love it okay
36:51
first one is what does a well-lived life look like to you I think that’s going to vary
36:57
personto person we talk about this in my um Clinical Psychology classes where I’m
37:04
now teaching training new clinical psychologists that mental health the World Health Organization talks about
37:11
being able to resiliently respond to stressful things that happen in one’s life but also feeling that one is able
37:19
to make a contribution in their relationships in their Community um and those things can be true kind of
37:26
regardless of other physical or mental health issues you might have so um I
37:32
think for me it’s being able to have meaningful activity and the full range
37:38
of human emotions good and bad that come along with this life we
37:43
get nice what do you suspect is the true nature of
37:50
reality that is an excellent ongoing question isn’t it I think I ask
37:56
everybody yeah absolutely I’m hoping somebody says something and I’m like yes but none of us really know but what do
38:02
you think you know this this question is influenced both by my scientific
38:08
understanding and also some of the Buddhist study that I’ve done because they talk about and think about and have
38:14
studied this question for thousands of years I think that um I don’t know I’m
38:21
very curious what our scientific investigations will continue to hold but
38:26
I think the true nature of reality is different for every human being and that
38:34
simultaneously um the the life the spirit of life um continues to sort of
38:44
yeah infect each of us with uh within that reality we
38:50
perceive how do you feel that people should take care to stay con connected to their Consciousness or their soul
38:58
m in The Grieving body I write a lot about my own life sort of experience of
39:05
the need to be silent and allow for a time when you’re
39:13
not using words where you’re not being bombarded by stimulus from outside to
39:20
sit quietly and listen to what’s going on in your mind what’s going on in your
39:26
body um those to me a and doing that in a
39:32
practice sort of way meaning not just you accidentally find yourself without
39:37
you know with a dead phone and oh I guess I have to sit here without any distraction but doing it intentionally
39:44
like actually taking the time to sit quietly maybe in nature maybe at home uh
39:50
to really listen to what’s going on in your mind and your body so many people on this podcast have talked about
39:56
meditation being the key but you also did remind me of an anecdote in your book about how you went on Retreat and
40:02
you weren’t allowed to speak and that was difficult for you it was terrifying
40:08
initially the first few days of the retreat we did not speak and uh it was a
40:13
Buddhist Retreat um and it was also one of the most profoundly changing
40:19
experiences of my life yeah I just I know I have a loved one who would also
40:24
have be challenged by the not being able to speak I it’s when you’re Retreat you will get
40:31
over that hump but that was the hump that I think would be difficult for and and I know you said it was difficult for
40:37
you yes but now I’m no longer afraid of it which is pretty
40:43
wonderful that is great that’s what those Retreats are for so that’s right
40:49
yay when you die assuming our Consciousness survives in some way or your soul what do you hope to discover
40:57
[Music] well that’s a big context isn’t it uh whether our Consciousness survives or
41:03
not um I don’t know if it does or not uh I don’t really uh have a strong belief
41:11
that it does um what I hope to discover
41:16
is that um as I am potentially losing
41:21
that Consciousness I hope to discover that I have used this one wildli I’ve
41:27
been given as well as I possibly can you know Mary Francis I’m not offended if
41:32
you think that when we die that’s it yeah I I thought you know I I definitely
41:38
had that belief for a while but I’ve had some experience that have changed my mind but I have many other guests who’s like nope it’s done when you’re done
41:46
you’re done and that’s completely a valid point of view so I mean I think you don’t have to hedge for me yeah no I
41:53
mean I think from my perspective what clearly goes on is every single person I’ve ever affected and touched because I
42:01
am then a part of their Consciousness and so I think I am woven into all Consciousness even if I no longer
42:07
personally am consciously aware and now a profane question Oh by
42:15
comparison okay it’s not terrible where can people find you and the good work that you’re doing where should they find
42:20
your book what do so the book which is also available as uh ebook and audiobook
42:27
options in fact I read the audiobook uh version this this time around of The
42:32
Grieving body oh did you love that somebody people love recording their audio book it’s pretty it it was it’s
42:39
definitely a skill set in any case um books are available anywhere books are sold and uh more information on my lab
42:47
is at Mary Francis o connor. org okay and I will hold up again we have The Grieving body and your previous book is
42:54
The Grieving brain for anybody who’s interested yeah and any final words
42:59
you’d like to impart on the audience today boy I just really appreciate you bringing this conversation to people oh
43:06
thank you I appreciate the work you’re doing so we can have the conversation I am certainly not articulate enough to go
43:12
out there and just bring it up so thank you and Mary francess thank you for your time today yes thank
43:20
you thanks for watching click to join us on another journey and don’t forget to
43:25
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